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Alexander Sarlin 0:04 Welcome to Ed Tech insiders. In this podcast we talk to educators and educational technology investors, thought leaders, founders and operators about the most interesting and exciting trends in the field. I'm your host, Alex Sarlin, an educational technology veteran with over a decade of work at leading edtech companies.Ben Kornell 0:27 Hello, everyone, and welcome to This Week in edtech. I'm your host, Ben Cornell with my co host, Alex Sarlin. Here today, we have a huge day in ed tech, lots of news. So we're doing a double episode. And not only do we have many headlines to bring you we also have an interview with our first unicorn CEO ever on the podcast, Phillip color from paper. We're really excited for today's episode and Well, we hope you'll hang with us as we walk through everything happening in the EdTech universe. Let's go to the headlinesnumber one, Alex.Alexander Sarlin 1:15 So our first headline today it comes from an ad search article a very interesting initiative coming out of Facebook slash meta. It's about how meta is starting to help colleges recreate their campuses in the metaverse basically create Metaverse campuses, and it's clearly a sort of early move to try to create fully online and fully immersive education experiences. A meta as you know, is one of many companies, especially big tech companies that are all sort of in a big, epic fight to sort of own the metaverse. We also saw Apple this week announced a new device that will come in a couple of years. That's their sort of immersive device. We're seeing Microsoft make moves, we're seeing Disney make moves. So the metaverse the war for the metal versus on an education is one of the fronts in which it will be fought. Interesting times. What do you think about that? This movement?Ben Kornell 2:16 Please, Lord, tell me they are not creating metal fraternities or I'm going to I'm just gonna give up on the whole thing. Please.Alexander Sarlin 2:25 Know what happened? I mean,Ben Kornell 2:26 my take on this, Alex is that, you know, Facebook, once again, inadvertently makes a huge education play. And it is always challenging when we in ed tech are a rounding error on a big tech corporate initiative. But this one actually could be really important because meta investing in the metaverse promises to be one of the leading platforms where people will, you know Metaverse their lives, I strongly believe that you know, we're actually going to be in a multiple Metaverse future where students are going to be choosing a Metaverse and then that likely converts them to lifelong users of that metaverse. And so this play into education is an early adopter kind of play. But I also think, you know, for any kind of platforms that we've seen, people will want to be able to switch between platforms. And so, you know, it'll be interesting to see how much lock in Facebook can get from people attending a Metaverse on their platform, versus, you know, people being able to switch back and forth between all of the big tech meta versus as well as the emergent tech meta versus so that's my take, what's your thought?Alexander Sarlin 3:45 Yeah, so So I thought about this a lot this week, and I wrote a piece for the tech insiders newsletter and my, my thoughts are maybe a little odd and controversial on this. I'm not sure how our listeners whether our listeners will will agree with me on this. But my take is basically that, you know, the concept of multiple meta versus like you're saying is actually kind of not really what the web three folks mean, when they say Metaverse, I mean, we already have lots of gaming worlds. We have Second Life and World of Warcraft and Roblox and fortnight which have 10s of millions of active users. Those are immersive worlds with 10s of millions of people in them. All sorts of things are happening. But I think the idea of the metaverse is really that it is the one Metaverse like the one internet. And with that in mind, you can very much see why these big tech companies are all in the big fight to make the metaverse because it almost is by definition singular. They're trying and I totally agree with you that education would be one of the inroads to the metaverse, especially because it would work for you know, college students and high school and maybe even eventually K 12. Other ones would obviously be social networking, gaming, and work like meeting. So you know, we saw this week Microsoft announced a tool called mesh very recently, that is sort of their competition with Facebook's immersive meeting tool. So I think these companies are all looking and saying, Where can we insert the metaverse into people's lives in a way that actually might be interesting? And if we can, how can we, you know, then start to own it. And from what I've seen over the last couple of decades, even though it seems a little dystopian to have a single private company owning something as powerful and big as the internet. I don't think the government has regularly especially the US government has done any kind of good job of regulating this and I think these companies just have a little bit of free rein to to run with it. So I think, you know, you see Disney just poached a Big Apple executive this week to build their Metaverse strategy. Microsoft owns Minecraft that's one of the biggest existing virtual worlds if they were to put Minecraft and and World of Warcraft, which they're buying for Activision in a single Metaverse and put schooling in it to be pretty hard to resist. So I think this could be one of the big fronts for for tech companies for a long time. And I think education is going to be, like you say, a rounding error to some extent, but also maybe one of the main battlefields on which this on which this big tech throwdown happens. And frankly, I think it will probably end with a single company getting sort of owning, owning the metaverse and, you know, for all intents and purposes, that may not be true all the way around the world. But if you look at what happened with with social media, or even with music, you know, there's no reason why there should be one serious music platform in the world. But there is Spotify is much bigger than almost everything else, even including companies like Apple Music or Amazon. So I think sometimes the winners do take off and it may happen with the metaverse.Ben Kornell 6:57 You know, I always love your analysis. And you're right when you say it's a dystopia, because first, the second that I was thinking that Mark Zuckerberg was finally going to go to a virtual frat, his constructed University and now I'm grappling with the fact that we may all live in a Minecraft Metaverse where everything is block shaped. Ultimately, I think it's, I think it's really, really unlikely in fact, like, you know, zero probability chance that there is a singular Metaverse, in part because that would be too powerful for any company and governments would absolutely be threatened to their core purpose. And while the US government is definitely not proactive, Europe would have a field day with a singular Metaverse and all of the, you know, not only that, but if you think about how they regulate trade and labor and all of that stuff, that would be a really tough Metaverse to run in the EU. And I would on top of that, I think that consumers really like choice. And that, well, Coke is the big company, there's always a Pepsi. And I think people like the alternative and people will gravitate to the alternative. And you know, ultimately what you'd have to argue is that switching costs, plus network effects become so incredibly powerful. That the fall off of going to the number two Metaverse versus the number one Metaverse, it'd be such a much more horrible experience that you you know, you have to go to number one, and you can't port anything over to number two. And I think that's just really unlikely, especially given that all these big companies are going after it. You know, if I'm a virtual real retailer, I would not want to be stuck in a binary. You know, all my chips are on this Metaverse versus that Metaverse, I'm going to be multichannel. What I will say for the those of us in the education space, though, is that we may end up defaulting people into meta versus based on the decisions of, you know, k 12, or higher ed institutions, adopting a singular platform because it's much more likely given their subscale that they will pick one and say, Hey, you want to attend, you know, Virtual College, you come to us on this metaverse. And that, you know, we're actually seeing tons of users getting exposed to the G Suite through K 12. And it creates powerful incentives for people to become lifelong Gmail users, and cloud and you know, Chrome and computing and you name it. And so again, like I'll avoid that some speech around Google and education. But what we're finding is education as a means to the end of locking in users and building a user audience. I could totally see that happening. And I think it's worth watching really closely.Alexander Sarlin 9:58 Yeah, well Really quick last comment on that because I think that was a terrific analysis. You may be right that there wouldn't be a single Metaverse in maybe two, I remember when Android first launched. And when Google basically tried to break the monopoly of Apple, owning all the app stores, and basically being the platform in which, you know, mobile, mobile, everything was happening. And at first, it seemed like, you know, going to be a big uphill battle, but they got there. And by taking a different strategy, and now you have, you know, basically two to two big winners in the mobile space in that particular segment. And you know, Samsung, a lot of that was built on Android. I think you're right, that there may be two, but I don't think there's going to be a whole lot because it's very expensive to build these. And there's huge network effects in every different way. When they start getting built. It's going to be hard to create a new Metaverse once. They're ones that really exist. I mean, I know we're wearing our science fiction hats right now a little bit, but But I definitely hear you about European Union, you're also going to see places like China, perhaps create their own or have insane regulations, the way they've done. I won't say insane, but you know, very high high regulations, the way they've done with the Internet. It's gonna be a wild ride, but but I'd be surprised if there are no, there's more than more than two major meta versus if there are any at all. I just think that maybe maybe one for Europe and two in the US that kind of thing. But I don't know if it's going to go that much more than that. And you're right. Those companies will have insane power, unbelievable power over our lives. If things really start happening. They're including inBen Kornell 11:34 education. Yeah, all good points, and also a really great point about the intersection between politics and metaverse. Like, if there is a eu Metaverse, or there are two in the US, how does that actually affect geopolitics? And who has access to which better versus under which rules and regulations? And when we think about that from an edtech and learning perspective, okay, what, what then are the implications on how kids or early learners or college students are exposed to that, so fascinating to think about how that's going to play out. And you know, a big signal to everyone that Facebook is going to be a major player. Speaking of major players are headline number two is guild coming in with a huge $175 million round guild many of you will know as the unicorn that aggregates Community College content, works with employers offer career pathways, and celebrates with investors like Steph Curry. But turns out they're not no longer an ad tech unicorn. They are a benefits unicorn, they have converted to being a benefit platform. The word from Matt tower, thank you shout out to Matt tower for your your coverage of this guild is a platform for employee benefits made possible by a b2b payments data layer. I didn't hear education, or learning mentioned in that new statement of vision. Is this a pivot? Alex? Where is this actually doubling down on something that guild has been building towards?Alexander Sarlin 13:14 I would, from the coverage, I think it's a doubling down. I don't think it's a pivot away from education as much as a natural extension when you're getting to be as big as gild is you have I think Oprah is in this investor round. And it's just really massive. I think you need to tell a story about what about how you're going to eat the next the next world? And I think just, you know, we all we know, on this show how people can look askance at education and learning as a, as a big as big market as it is. i My guess is that they are you have, you know, Rachel Carlson in these articles saying, it'll include the products that sit around education, everything a worker would need to know to move into middle class and then thrive there. And I'm guessing what she probably means by that is not only education benefits, but parenting benefits, but benefits that for leave, or anything that would make somebody's life easier when it comes to improving it, including education and sort of with education at the core. I'm it's a little bit of a squishy story, but I don't think it's just that they're becoming the new, you know, HR platform. I think it's really that they're, that they're expanding out from the specific type of education as a benefit they've been doing to all of the surrounding supports that students actually need to succeed there. Yeah,Ben Kornell 14:41 that's great analysis. And I do think that there's an element of kind of pulling on a thread that they've been pulling for a while. When I heard this news. I thought that there were three potential stories behind the news. One, things aren't going really well and they needed more powder. they needed more money. And they needed a different vision or a bigger vision to try to drive to that. I think that that's unlikely, just given the type of investors that they brought in $175 million is not a patch job. It's not a bridge. And that's serious cash. And I do also think that the revenue and the stickiness that guild has demonstrated, while I'm, I often look at their top line revenue, you actually have to look down a couple of layers to, you know, what was their pass through to get to their real revenue. I have, you know, in all the reports I've seen, it's been growing, and other people have tried to try to crack corporate, you know, development and upskilling. And they are not anywhere close to guilds level of penetration, scale and impact. The second story that I could see is that this is really taking a channel approach. And when we, when we have b2b sales, the most common thing you can do to grow, is actually push more products through your existing channel, rather than trying to acquire new customers. And I think that this is what you're they're going. And you know, once you've got the trust of the learning, czar at Walmart, and who probably sits within the HR function, or people quote, unquote, function, why wouldn't you layer on some of these other employee benefits? You know, because that's often how those corporations are thinking of it. What worries me or would worry me about that is if you're a community college partnered with guild, how much are you going to continue to be the focus of the company and the packaging and repackaging and distribution of your products, versus like them finding other products to push into the benefits layer 3/3 story, which I think it might be a little bit of all of these. But the third story that's most interesting is CEO persona, really driving the evolution of a company and Rachel Romer Carlson, you know, I knew her back when she was Rachel Romer, her dad, Chris Romer, you know, active in Colorado, her, her grandfather, superintendent of Los Angeles Unified School District, as well as I believe Governor of Colorado. This is she has made an incredible play in terms of positioning herself as the new female CEO, who is able to build a huge company, manage family, and create a workplace where people from all sorts of backgrounds are welcome. And now she's essentially offering that for other companies to buy, which is, you can create a place that supports the whole worker. And you can see like Oprah, and Steph, these are strategic investors, designed to create PR and press that creates business momentum for them. So I, I will say, you know, we don't have that many superstar ed tech CEOs, a lot of people actually take a pretty low profile. And Rachel is out front on social issues. And I think this is a big double down her as a personality, and really raises the question of like, where could guild go with that theme? I don't know if any of those resonate with you, Alex. Oh, 100%. IAlexander Sarlin 18:20 think that was a fascinating breakdown. I think of those three stories. They're, they're all meaningful. I think the second one resonates the most with me, because I think that that land and expand strategy makes a lot of sense. It's not just that guild is working with big companies, it's working with the biggest companies, it's working with the biggest employers of frontline workers in the country. And when you are working at that scale, and you had, like you said, you built the trust, there's a lot more you can offer. That said, I would offer maybe a slight variation on your first story about them needing the powder, I don't think they need the powder. I don't think they need the money, because they're running out of money or anything like that. But what I do think they may need is they may need to offer more to their students to get them to actually stay and complete the education experiences that their their guild is offering. I mean, anybody who's worked in this space knows, it sounds amazing to say, Hey, you're a Walmart or Chipotle, you know, Disney, you know, employee, you can get access to a to a degree to actually get them to the finish line there. It takes an enormous amount of work and a lot of people and I'm wondering if this suite of additional services may be basically ways to remove obstacles to completion, which we know are enormously you know, basically what what keeps people